- Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:52 pm
#4353
Hello fellow scoot enthusiasts!
(The information provided below is being relayed from a very knowledgeable individual on the reverse engineering slack group) Sorry, it's invitation only to keep the company shills out. Of course this mod is only appropriate if you buy a Bird Zero at auction, although I've started seeing a lot of Bird Zero's dumped with the front wheel missing, so I guess this secret is getting out.
Yes, the front motor/tire of the Bird Zero is a beast when installed on the M365. The tire compound also seems to grip a lot better than the previous tires.
Differences in Bird Zero motor: Stronger magnets, optimized windings, and quick response/more accurate hall effect sensors (they tell the controller where the magnets are currently positioned, and adjust the "timing" like the distributor advance in a car. This motor is more powerful and efficient than the regular M365 motor. It also has better heat handling capability.
How this works: The Zero motor has more power capacity, which if using a custom firmware really unlocks its potential. If you are skinny and ride on flat ground, it's probably no big deal. If you are a bigger guy, or have hills, this wheel turns it from a hill snail into a tractor. It just pulls and pulls.
The stock motor when pushed with extra power creates a "back EMF" field that effectively limits further performance. Increased power makes more EMF and generates additional heat. This is wasted energy. The Zero motor can handle more power (watts) and runs cooler. With the stock M365 motor (wheel) going from 800 to 1000 watts makes little difference, other than draining your battery faster. When using the Zero wheel, going from 800 to 1000 watts provides a very noticeable boost. As I mentioned earlier, the zero motor is simply more efficient, and I assume a more expensive motor. Internally it appears to be of higher quality, with tighter tolerances, better machining, and a better overall design. The M365 motor starts to choke when pushed past 700 watts.
With the Bird Zero motor, and using a second battery for more capacity, it performs well up to 1300 watts before back EMF builds to unreasonable levels. Testing reveals (with stock battery only) that a Bird Zero motor provides the same acceleration and hill climbing ability at 600 watts as the stock M365 motor at 800 watts. Sooooooo, you can have the same performance with a longer lasting battery, or more performance for the same battery range, or MUCH more power with less battery range.
The M365 electronics can handle the increased capability of the Zero motor because its more efficient, and makes less back EMF. Put another way, the motor runs "cleaner" in its power utilization. It doesn't reflect as much "dirty" energy back into the controller. Or put another way, it's like a better stereo speaker that can handle more power without distortion. Those of you into audio know that distortion will damage electronics, even at less than maximum power.
One report of a user with M365/Zero wheel and modified controller claims it goes 28 mph, and I saw the gps speed, but can't confirm if it was truly on level ground. He seemed like an honest fellow though.
He had considered making a front and rear drive M365, but the Zero wheel upgrade has made that totally unnecessary, and saved a lot of fabrication headaches.
How hard is it to switch after legally acquiring your Bird Zero wheel? Same as changing a M365 wheel. If you can hold a wrench, and unplug and replug some wires, you won't have any trouble.
Heck, if your smart enough to operate a cell phone you can certainly turn a wrench without bursting too many neurons..... I think you could train a monkey to do it in about 20 minutes, but can't confirm this because I don't have a monkey.
Another person on the "post your bird pics" topic has already done this, if you wan't to see how it looks.
So in summary, if your skinny, ride on level ground at stock power settings and prefer docile performance, dont bother with this upgrade. If you like to tinker or want more oomph, I think you will really be surprised. It even did pretty good with 2 adults on board, going up a slight hill.
I hope this convoluted explanation will make some sense. It's hard to translate into laymans terms. a google search for "back EMF", "hall sensors" and "3 phase motor" will pull up lots of entertaining and informative videos. I think you will be impressed with the technology involved, and value your scoot even more. It's not a kids toy, it's a serious piece of tech.
Some people report the same top speed after conversion, some claim a slightly lower top speed (but still way more power getting there). It seems to depend on the brand of board, and firmware.
All tests were done using BMS 107, and custom firmware, including 200CFW, 200CFW_W, and the "roll your own" firmware design tool. Info on these is available on the internet, but if you are reading this article, you probably already know about your stuff.
If you undertake this adeventure, I'd recommending getting benchmarks for your stock wheel first. Such as time to accelerate to top speed, and your speed going up a particular hill. That way after the mod you will have hard data on just how much better it is, instead of relying on the butt-o-meter.
In the future this guy will put on the additional battery again and see how it does at 1600 watts. He's not worried about burning something up seeing how far he can push it, since spare parts are readily available This is an image - REGISTER or LOGIN to view.
I hope you all are enjoying this golden age of scootering, where Chinese venture capitalists are flooding American cities with their money making scheme. In their greedy haste, they used all those consumer scooters that can be easily converted, writing off losses instead of planning properly and using custom built scooters like Lime, and now the new Bird Zero. I wonder when those greedy fellows will realize that making the Bird Zero motor with the same mount as a M365 probably wasn't the best idea, and I weep every time a greedy Chinese looses a few yen. This is an image - REGISTER or LOGIN to view.
Hang in there buddy, you can still rip people off on Ebay........
I won't be able to answer many questions, for various reasons, but look forward to seeing pics and reading your adventures.
Stay safe, and God bless the free world!
(The information provided below is being relayed from a very knowledgeable individual on the reverse engineering slack group) Sorry, it's invitation only to keep the company shills out. Of course this mod is only appropriate if you buy a Bird Zero at auction, although I've started seeing a lot of Bird Zero's dumped with the front wheel missing, so I guess this secret is getting out.
Yes, the front motor/tire of the Bird Zero is a beast when installed on the M365. The tire compound also seems to grip a lot better than the previous tires.
Differences in Bird Zero motor: Stronger magnets, optimized windings, and quick response/more accurate hall effect sensors (they tell the controller where the magnets are currently positioned, and adjust the "timing" like the distributor advance in a car. This motor is more powerful and efficient than the regular M365 motor. It also has better heat handling capability.
How this works: The Zero motor has more power capacity, which if using a custom firmware really unlocks its potential. If you are skinny and ride on flat ground, it's probably no big deal. If you are a bigger guy, or have hills, this wheel turns it from a hill snail into a tractor. It just pulls and pulls.
The stock motor when pushed with extra power creates a "back EMF" field that effectively limits further performance. Increased power makes more EMF and generates additional heat. This is wasted energy. The Zero motor can handle more power (watts) and runs cooler. With the stock M365 motor (wheel) going from 800 to 1000 watts makes little difference, other than draining your battery faster. When using the Zero wheel, going from 800 to 1000 watts provides a very noticeable boost. As I mentioned earlier, the zero motor is simply more efficient, and I assume a more expensive motor. Internally it appears to be of higher quality, with tighter tolerances, better machining, and a better overall design. The M365 motor starts to choke when pushed past 700 watts.
With the Bird Zero motor, and using a second battery for more capacity, it performs well up to 1300 watts before back EMF builds to unreasonable levels. Testing reveals (with stock battery only) that a Bird Zero motor provides the same acceleration and hill climbing ability at 600 watts as the stock M365 motor at 800 watts. Sooooooo, you can have the same performance with a longer lasting battery, or more performance for the same battery range, or MUCH more power with less battery range.
The M365 electronics can handle the increased capability of the Zero motor because its more efficient, and makes less back EMF. Put another way, the motor runs "cleaner" in its power utilization. It doesn't reflect as much "dirty" energy back into the controller. Or put another way, it's like a better stereo speaker that can handle more power without distortion. Those of you into audio know that distortion will damage electronics, even at less than maximum power.
One report of a user with M365/Zero wheel and modified controller claims it goes 28 mph, and I saw the gps speed, but can't confirm if it was truly on level ground. He seemed like an honest fellow though.
He had considered making a front and rear drive M365, but the Zero wheel upgrade has made that totally unnecessary, and saved a lot of fabrication headaches.
How hard is it to switch after legally acquiring your Bird Zero wheel? Same as changing a M365 wheel. If you can hold a wrench, and unplug and replug some wires, you won't have any trouble.
Heck, if your smart enough to operate a cell phone you can certainly turn a wrench without bursting too many neurons..... I think you could train a monkey to do it in about 20 minutes, but can't confirm this because I don't have a monkey.
Another person on the "post your bird pics" topic has already done this, if you wan't to see how it looks.
So in summary, if your skinny, ride on level ground at stock power settings and prefer docile performance, dont bother with this upgrade. If you like to tinker or want more oomph, I think you will really be surprised. It even did pretty good with 2 adults on board, going up a slight hill.
I hope this convoluted explanation will make some sense. It's hard to translate into laymans terms. a google search for "back EMF", "hall sensors" and "3 phase motor" will pull up lots of entertaining and informative videos. I think you will be impressed with the technology involved, and value your scoot even more. It's not a kids toy, it's a serious piece of tech.
Some people report the same top speed after conversion, some claim a slightly lower top speed (but still way more power getting there). It seems to depend on the brand of board, and firmware.
All tests were done using BMS 107, and custom firmware, including 200CFW, 200CFW_W, and the "roll your own" firmware design tool. Info on these is available on the internet, but if you are reading this article, you probably already know about your stuff.
If you undertake this adeventure, I'd recommending getting benchmarks for your stock wheel first. Such as time to accelerate to top speed, and your speed going up a particular hill. That way after the mod you will have hard data on just how much better it is, instead of relying on the butt-o-meter.
In the future this guy will put on the additional battery again and see how it does at 1600 watts. He's not worried about burning something up seeing how far he can push it, since spare parts are readily available This is an image - REGISTER or LOGIN to view.
I hope you all are enjoying this golden age of scootering, where Chinese venture capitalists are flooding American cities with their money making scheme. In their greedy haste, they used all those consumer scooters that can be easily converted, writing off losses instead of planning properly and using custom built scooters like Lime, and now the new Bird Zero. I wonder when those greedy fellows will realize that making the Bird Zero motor with the same mount as a M365 probably wasn't the best idea, and I weep every time a greedy Chinese looses a few yen. This is an image - REGISTER or LOGIN to view.
Hang in there buddy, you can still rip people off on Ebay........
I won't be able to answer many questions, for various reasons, but look forward to seeing pics and reading your adventures.
Stay safe, and God bless the free world!
- By alexgroove